Turkish, accident la Amsterdam

Approach: http://archive-server.liveatc.net/tu...ish-1951-cleared-approach-eham.mp3
Post crash:http://archive-server.liveatc.net/EHAM-Airport-Post-Crash.mp3

Quebec a scris:

vremea era ceva normal pentru EHAM, pe pprune se tot vehiculeaza ca ar fi un autoreverse accidental in faza de final approach dar pana nu auzim ce zice comisia olandeza si cu NTSB care a trimis o echipa la fata locului, nu putem decat sa ne dam cu presupusu

Poti sa tragi cat vrei de manetele pentru reversoare, ele nu se deschid in aer. Reversoarele la 737 se activeaza sub 10ft deasupra pistei. Abia acuma daca tragi de manete, reversoarele se deschid.

Griff a scris:

Quebec a scris:

vremea era ceva normal pentru EHAM, pe pprune se tot vehiculeaza ca ar fi un autoreverse accidental in faza de final approach dar pana nu auzim ce zice comisia olandeza si cu NTSB care a trimis o echipa la fata locului, nu putem decat sa ne dam cu presupusu

Poti sa tragi cat vrei de manetele pentru reversoare, ele nu se deschid in aer. Reversoarele la 737 se activeaza sub 10ft deasupra pistei. Abia acuma daca tragi de manete, reversoarele se deschid.

Grif o sa digvagam putin, dar nu trebuie sa uitam de accidentul Lauda Air cu 767 cand unu dintre reversoare s-a activat in zbor, deci o mica probabilitate exista sa fi fost, dar decat sa speculam aiurea eu zuc sa asteptam un comunicat oficial cu primele detali

E o mare diferenta intre echipamentele care erau pe 767 acela si un 737-800.

kkk a scris:

Griff a scris:

Quebec a scris:

vremea era ceva normal pentru EHAM, pe pprune se tot vehiculeaza ca ar fi un autoreverse accidental in faza de final approach dar pana nu auzim ce zice comisia olandeza si cu NTSB care a trimis o echipa la fata locului, nu putem decat sa ne dam cu presupusu

Poti sa tragi cat vrei de manetele pentru reversoare, ele nu se deschid in aer. Reversoarele la 737 se activeaza sub 10ft deasupra pistei. Abia acuma daca tragi de manete, reversoarele se deschid.

Grif o sa digvagam putin, dar nu trebuie sa uitam de accidentul Lauda Air cu 767 cand unu dintre reversoare s-a activat in zbor, deci o mica probabilitate exista sa fi fost, dar decat sa speculam aiurea eu zuc sa asteptam un comunicat oficial cu primele detali

Da, ai si tu dreptate, un scurt circuit bine plasat poate deschide reversorul.

Griff a scris:

Quebec a scris:

vremea era ceva normal pentru EHAM, pe pprune se tot vehiculeaza ca ar fi un autoreverse accidental in faza de final approach dar pana nu auzim ce zice comisia olandeza si cu NTSB care a trimis o echipa la fata locului, nu putem decat sa ne dam cu presupusu

Poti sa tragi cat vrei de manetele pentru reversoare, ele nu se deschid in aer. Reversoarele la 737 se activeaza sub 10ft deasupra pistei. Abia acuma daca tragi de manete, reversoarele se deschid.

inginerii nostri ii spun „protectie la prostie”. adica dai o anumita comanda, fara ca aceasta sa fie preluata, tocmai pentru ar reprezenta un pericol

claudiup a scris:

Griff a scris:

Quebec a scris:

vremea era ceva normal pentru EHAM, pe pprune se tot vehiculeaza ca ar fi un autoreverse accidental in faza de final approach dar pana nu auzim ce zice comisia olandeza si cu NTSB care a trimis o echipa la fata locului, nu putem decat sa ne dam cu presupusu

Poti sa tragi cat vrei de manetele pentru reversoare, ele nu se deschid in aer. Reversoarele la 737 se activeaza sub 10ft deasupra pistei. Abia acuma daca tragi de manete, reversoarele se deschid.

inginerii nostri ii spun „protectie la prostie”. adica dai o anumita comanda, fara ca aceasta sa fie preluata, tocmai pentru ar reprezenta un pericol

Asa ii zic toti inginerii, nu numai ai nostri. Nu stiu la alte aeronave, dar lucrez cu Boeingul 737 si il stiu binisor. In cabina majoritatea contactelor sint asigurate. Cele rotitoare (exemplu engine starter switches) trebuie impinse intai apoi poti sa le rotesti, iar celelalte gen AZS (adica acele gen comutatoarele alea rusesti) trebuie trase inainte ca sa le schimbi pozitia (exemplu comutatoarele pentru pompele de combustibil, engine cut-off valve, etc). Celelalte care nu reprezinta un pericol daca le schimbi pozitia sint neasigurate (radio switches).

orice e posibil, pana nu va exista un report preliminar sau niste declaratii ale unor oficiali nu putem decat sa ne dam cu parerea. orice e posibil... de la pasari in motor pana la pierderea presiunii(precum la Helios...)
am inteles ca au ridicat cutia neagra si ca urmeaza decodarea acesteia. sa speram ca nu va muri nimeni din cei internati...

Pe liveatc nu am gasit,cel putin mie nu mi-a mers site-ul, inregitrarea la aproach. O poate posta careva?

Uite fisierul audio de pe acest site. Convorbirile cu turnul nu cred ca s-au facut publice.

Nimic nu este public (din start) si totul este ilegal.
Ma refer la liveatc.
Accidentul s-a petrecut in jurul orei 0930Z, din cauza asta sunt 2 fisiere.
http://ro.ivao.aero/EHAM
Oficial acesta este arhiva feedului EHAM #2 Schiphol Apt. - Amsterdam, NL de pe liveatc.
Acest feed vine de pe urmatoarele frecvente:
Schiphol Delivery 121.975
Schiphol Start-up 121.650
Schiphol Ground 121.700,121.800,121.900
Schiphol Tower 119.225 Primary
Schiphol Tower 118.100,118.275,118.95,119.9

Dupa PRO TV se pare ca intretinerea nu a fost facuta cum trebuie..... Cica lunea a avut probleme cu un Flaps Luni dar ca a fost remediata.... daca a avut probleme si au fost remediate care ii ideea???? Sindicatele de la Turkish acuza compania ca nu face intretinerea ca la carte.... daca ii sa luam in considerare cele 10 incidente care le-a avut Turkish in ultimi 25 de ani din care trei au fost similare ( inclusiv asta) cred ca sindicatele au dreptate ( supoziti bazate pe Protv )

Da, am vazut stirea. S-au mai intamplat cazuri din astea datorita lacomiei unor conducatori ai companiilor. Va recomand sa urmariti filmul Whiskey Romeo Zulu, legat de acest subiect al aviatiei comerciale. Regizorul filmului este chiar un fost comandant de Boeing 737 de la o companie argentianiana. El a reclamat aceste nereguli legate de reviziile proaste si a fost exclus din companie. Mai gasiti filmul si sub numele de WRZ pe site-urile de torrenturi. Daca nu gasiti, pot face eu niste copii ale dvd-ului pentru cei din Bucuresti.

Poate au ceva dreptate cei de la PROTV, dar in media din RO nu mai cred, nici daca ma platesc.

Site-ul brigazii de pompieri de pe Schipol cu album foto.
http://www.brandweerschiphol.nl/incidenten/2009_02_26/crash.html
Jos este si un KML pt GE cu ruta avionului.

Foarte interesante pozele. Iti provoaca fiori cand te gandesti prin ce au trecut pasagerii ...mai ales cand vezi cum arata scaunele...

iata si o simulare

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bbd_1236022716

Cum am banuit, a fost o angajare. Acuma sa asteptam sa vedem lantul de factori cauzatori.

Asta e viziunea alora care au facut simularea. Pana nu se vine cu o declaratie oficiala din partea anchetatorilor, nu putem sa stim.

Engine Failure Ruled Out in Amsterdam Plane Crash
By ANDY PASZTOR

The Turkish Airlines jet that crashed and killed nine people last week as it approached Amsterdam's Schiphol Airport most likely didn't experience engine failure, run out of fuel or suffer an upset from turbulence created by a larger airliner it was following, according to people familiar with the investigation's preliminary findings.

Dutch investigators are scheduled to give their first public update Wednesday afternoon in The Hague, but they aren't expected to pinpoint the specific cause of the crash, which also injured more than half of the 135 people aboard. Early evidence, these people said, indicates the mid-morning approach to the airport in drizzle and relatively good visibility was uneventful until the Boeing 737 suddenly lost speed and slammed into a field about a mile short of the runway.

With obvious engine problems seemingly ruled out, among the issues investigators are focusing on is which of the pilots was flying the aircraft, and what commands he gave before the crash. Some industry officials said they have been told that on final approach right before impact, the plane's forward speed abruptly dropped by more than 30 miles per hour. Depending on power settings, aircraft configuration and other factors, such a dramatic slowdown with landing gear and wing flaps deployed could create big problems in maintaining adequate lift.

The head of the Dutch Safety Authority previously was quoted saying that "because of a lack of speed (the plane) literally fell out of the sky." One of the items investigators are expected to discuss Wednesday is whether the plane's stall-warning device – called a "stick shaker" – activated to alert the crew that the plane may have been flying at a dangerously slow speed.

All of the pilots on Turkish Airlines Flight 1951 from Istanbul died when the plane broke into three pieces. Dutch investigators and airline officials have declined to comment. A spokesman for the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board, which also is participating in the investigation, also had no comment.

According to people familiar with the probe, some investigators believe the pilot at the controls during the approach was Olgay Ozgur, the junior member of the cockpit crew. The airline said Mr. Ozgur was born in 1980 and had four years of flight experience. Capt. Hasan Tahsin Ansan had 30 years of flight time and the third pilot, Murat Sezer, had 20 years, according to a statement by the airline Tuesday. So far, neither the airline nor investigators have commented on this issue.

Before the crash, both engines of the seven-year-old Boeing 737 responded to orders from the cockpit, according to people familiar with the investigation, indicating they likely had normal fuel flow and were putting out thrust as commanded. And the cockpit crew didn't inform air-traffic controllers about any mechanical or other problems, according to people familiar with information gleaned from the flight-data and cockpit voice recorders recovered from the crash site.

Days after the crash, a Turkisk pilots' group claimed turbulence from a larger plane landing in front of the Boeing 737 may have caused the accident. Investigators responded that they intend to look into all potential causes, from so-called wake turbulence to bird strikes to possible fuel starvation of the engines.

But more recently, safety experts on both sides of the Atlantic and people familiar with the investigation discounted the likelihood that turbulence played a major role in the accident. They said preliminary air-traffic data, the Turkish airliner's sudden drop in speed and the pattern of wreckage on the ground all provide evidence against such theories. A severe upset from wake turbulence, for example, typically puts a big jet into a roll but doesn't produce a swift and dramatic drop in airspeed.

sursa: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123614307657626797.html?mod=fox_australian

"Altimeter 'had role' in air crash"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7923782.stm

La Realitatea cica avionul a avut un altimetru stricat, avionul era pe pilot automat. De la inaltimea de 800 metri, la cat se afla avionul, altimetrul ar fi aratat ca avionul se afla la doar cativa metri deasupra solului. Asa ca pilotul automat ar fi redus turatia motoarelor si avionul nu a mai avut portanta.

Dar...nu pot sa cred ca de asta s-a prabusit avionul...adica daca se strica un altimetru avionul se prabuseste? Plus ca mai era cel putin un altimetru care mergea bine....

Plus ca mai erau si pilotii. Si totusi, sh!t happens, sometimes...

737 Next Gen au 2 unitati ADIRU (air data inertial reference unit) - astea transforma tot ce capteza senzorii externi (tub pitot, porturi statice, sonda temperatura, indicator unghi atac) in semnale electrice care se afiseaza la bord. Oricum, exista 6 porturi statice care care asigura masurarea corecta altitudinii, deci "a avut un altimetru stricat" nu prea suna corect. Si chiar daca prin absurd pilotii nu ar fi setat QNH-ul local corect (astfel altitudinea ar fi fost afisata gresit) mai exist radio altimetrul care functioneaza separat si te avertizeaza vizual si auditiv.
Oricum, inca e dubios, sa asteptam sa vedem cand o sa apara un raport oficial. Eu, ca pasionat de 737 mor de curiozitate ce s-antamplat acolo.

Nu mai vorbiti despre erori de altimetru. Este vorba doar de radioaltimetru. Iata un extras din documentul oficial dat publicitatii de catre autoritatile care ancheteaza accidentul:

"At a height of 1950 feet the left radio altimeter suddenly indicated a change in altitude – from 1950 feet to - 8 feet - and passed this onto the automatic pilot. This change had a particular impact upon the automatic throttle system which provides more or less engine power.
The radio altimeter normally measures the altitude of the plane above the ground very accurately and can start registering this from 2500 feet. As already mentioned, this radio altimeter is very significant for providing the appropriate power for an automatic landing.
A Boeing is fitted with two radio altimeters, a left one and a right one.

The black box has shown that this deviation only occurred in the left radio altimeter.
The voice recorder has shown that the crew were notified that the left radio altimeter was not working correctly (via the warning signal “landing gear must go down”).

Provisional data indicates that this signal was not regarded to be a problem.
In practice, the plane responded to this sudden change as though it was at an altitude of just a few meters above the Polderbaan and engine power was reduced.

It seems that the automatic system – with its engines at reduced power – assumed it was in the final stages of the flight.

As a result, the aircraft lost speed.

Initially the crew did not react to the issues at hand.

As a result of the deceleration, the aircraft's speed was reduced to minimum flying speed (stalling situation) and warning signals (the steering column buzzes at an altitude of 150 metres) were given.

The black box shows that full power was then applied immediately.
However, this was too late to recover the flight, the aircraft was too low and, consequently, the Boeing crashed 1 kilometre short of the runway."

Textul integral il gasiti la mine pe blog.